Diversity, Equity, Inclusion: Power, Control, and Integration

In Episode 28, we are joined by two young architectural professionals who have been asked to participate in, as well as lead, diversity, equity, and inclusion (DEI) initiatives within their firms. Jayla Huseyn and Chris Roberson come from diverse backgrounds. Jayla is Middle Eastern and Chris is an African American who originally hailed from Chicago. They both received their Bachelors of Architecture at University of Houston and are currently employed at substantial architectural firms in Huston. As you will hear in the podcast, DEI can become a heavily charged initiative within companies, fraught with a lack of understanding about DEI, its purpose, and even a lack of real desired outcomes. DEI conversations can make us very uncomfortable and even threatened. But from a Dynamic Competence lens, there are ways that we can engage DEI that is more inclusive and allows us to address more deeply questions of equity and inclusion. In the podcast, we will explore the techniques and tools that Chris and Jayla are exploring and testing in real time as well as new ways framing the issue. 

Transcript

Susan Clark: [00:00:05] Welcome to the Art of Dynamic Competence. I'm Susan Clark. Join me and my brother Thomas May for season three of our podcasts, where we explore new, integral and integrating aspects of Dynamic Competence. Allowing us to better relate to the situations we find ourselves in and the hard work we all need to do. Before we get started, I just wanted to let you know that you can go to our website to find more details about each person we interview. Please go to Dynamic Competence dot com and click on the navigation bar for the podcast organized by each season, the dropdown menu can guide you to where you want to go. Today, we're joined by two young professionals, Jaylen Hussain and Chris Ferguson, to talk about this very interesting and challenging topic of diversity, equity and inclusion in the workplace. I chose them because this field of architecture has traditionally been a very white, really exclusively male occupation for a long time. And Chris and Jayla are both people of color. Jayla is Middle Eastern and Chris is African American. And both of them have quite interesting backgrounds. They both received their bachelor's of architecture, a University of Houston, and are currently employed as architects and training at exceptional Houston architectural firms. Both have been asked to lead in either the establishment of DEI programs, as Chris is being asked, or expanding existing programs at J-Lo's firms. On top of that, and in the spirit of true inclusion, we're also joined by their one year old son, Esau, as he sometimes smacks the microphone a bit and is very happy to add his own $0.02 to the conversation. So, Tom, what should our audience be listening for?

Thomas May: [00:01:56] Well, Suzanne, remember, DEI is a very heavily charged type of initiative within a company. And so Chris and Jayla, they're up against a lot to be able to move, especially in Chris's environment, where he's trying to push to the new. So take a look at the techniques and the tools that they use to help draw folks in and have a communication. And the other key part is listen to the conversation with regards to power and control and then this concept of sharing control. See how that all fits together and how they use that to help drive the initiative of the DEI. Enjoy the podcast.

Susan Clark: [00:02:41] I'd like to welcome you both to the Art of Dynamic Competence. I'm so glad to have you here.

Jayla Huseyn: [00:02:46] I'm very happy to be part of this.

Chris Roberson: [00:02:49] Hello and thank you for having us and giving us a chance to broaden this conversation.

Susan Clark: [00:02:55] Well, let's start with that, because I'd like to first get from you a general understanding of this concept of diversity, equity and inclusion. Can you guys help me explain.

Chris Roberson: [00:03:06] That the background to the term is from the Civil Rights Movement era. Be effective in any type of workforce and any type of a civilization. You need to first have that representation in place so you can physically see these things. It needs to be equitable and ethical where that's the term that I like a little bit more than equity, because equity it makes it more economical a financial type aspect, but with ethical, it puts it where it's something that is now not so much a, Oh, I get something out of this give and take. It's more like this is really my opportunity, my obligation, my responsibility.

Susan Clark: [00:03:47] So you've talked about diversity being the people coming to the table of diverse backgrounds, diverse race, something diverse from the traditional white male environment, correct? Yes. We talked a little bit about this idea of equity. And what about inclusion? Why is inclusion added to that acronym of DEI?

Chris Roberson: [00:04:09] Right. As an individual that's not included in these conversations and does not have a voice at the table to make a decision on my own behalf. So therefore, to be inclusive, to be included in the decision making and the brainstorming and the coming up with all of this policy that will rule our lives, but will not ultimately have anybody from our society in there with the voice. So whether it's political policy, whether it's architectural design, whether it's standards of how we live, these are people making decisions that have no connectivity with the community in which these decisions are affecting the most.

Susan Clark: [00:04:49] So they're not included in this conversation.

Chris Roberson: [00:04:51] Yes. To be equitable, to be ethical, whichever one you want to use, you need to make it where these things are no longer just a financial gain and then to be included in making the decision in in one person at the meeting that I had in my job that said a great point. Follow through. You can't just go to these places and give these people initiatives and be like they're going to figure it out and I'll never check back in with them. I'll never be able to really have that even connection with that person outside of like, I was here for a month and hopefully you get this right and goodbye.

Jayla Huseyn: [00:05:26] I want to add something, but also I want to disagree with something. I want to add one thing that Chris said and I want to add on to it. You can be diverse and you can have equity, but that doesn't mean that you will be inclusive.

Susan Clark: [00:05:39] Do you have an example of that?

Jayla Huseyn: [00:05:41] I've seen a lot of examples after the George Floyd incident. Corporate systems, making an effort to hire a lot of people of color. Making a true effort to be diverse. But they didn't actually include people of color and minorities in their efforts. So you can hire a lot of people of color and you can provide opportunities for people of color. But unless you include those people, include those voices, you won't really be inclusive. And I want to disagree with equity versus ethics. I think those are different and both are important. So equity means that people not just have equal opportunities, but people are brought to the point where they are able to use those opportunities equally because that makes sense. Whereas we need to make sure that what we're doing is ethical. But that is something that's important throughout all three of these.

Chris Roberson: [00:06:40] Absolutely.

Susan Clark: [00:06:41] And I do want to come back to that, because I think there's a really interesting piece to that. But before we get into that detail, I want to kind of connect this idea of DEI with your current work. So you guys both work at architectural firms with the hope of becoming a licensed architects. And in this position that you have, both of you are being asked to really bring DEI to the forefront in your organizations, is that correct? Correct. Yes. How is that going?

Chris Roberson: [00:07:09] Yeah, actually getting going now? I'm getting people engaged, giving people a voice. But then it's also hard to have people get out of their own way.

Susan Clark: [00:07:21] Say more about that.

Jayla Huseyn: [00:07:22] When you talk about equity, you kind of have to accept the fact that some people, some groups of people will need more resources than others, because with equity, that means you need to bring everybody up to that certain speed in order for everybody to be equal. That's the difference between equality and equity. And I think in a lot of people's minds, that means that if you provide more to a specific group, that means you're taking away more from other groups. Just just a random example. If you provide scholarships for these people, does that mean you're going to take that away from my people or me? So people tend to take that personally, and I think that is why DEI is being met with so much resistance.

Susan Clark: [00:08:08] So if you were trying to talk to someone who is uncomfortable with this idea of equity and they were concerned that they were going to lose, how would you talk to them? What would you convey to them to help them see in a different light?

Chris Roberson: [00:08:24] At my job, we've had our three. We'll call them brainstorming sessions. Right.

Susan Clark: [00:08:29] And these are around DEI?

Chris Roberson: [00:08:31] Yes. These are topics surrounded over DEI. If you don't have a person who understands, can speak from experience, knows how to speak to people, try to deliver this message. You will confuse people even more.

Susan Clark: [00:08:46] Okay.

Chris Roberson: [00:08:46] But right now, the people that need help need to be identified and they cannot be truly identified. If at every turn you're going to tell them a white male dominated field needs help. We aren't trying to exclude white males from architecture. We're just trying to invite more people to architects. And that does not limit the number or the path that white males will have. But we're just trying to give that same path, that same opportunity to other members of society at the same time.

Susan Clark: [00:09:22] Great. So what I hear you doing, Chris, is you're not sharing why you're doing something. You're just making it clear that this is about being more inclusive of everyone at an equitable playing field, that everybody is being asked to come in and are being tested against that. Is that correct?

Chris Roberson: [00:09:41] Yes. But then you're not just testing them without having the understanding of their background, because if a person comes in from an HBCU and they don't have that understanding of graphics, I cannot expect them to succeed in something that they have no experience.

Susan Clark: [00:09:57] Great.

Chris Roberson: [00:09:58] So I can create a structure. But see, you can't bring this person in and say you don't fit, but I never put a place for you to be right.

Susan Clark: [00:10:06] So you start with this idea of wanting to have diverse voices in your organization. You then go and carefully recruit for diversity. It's not to exclude white males. It's really to bring as many people to the table as possible. Yes. Then from that, you're evaluating personalities, motivations, skill sets, all these different things and saying this person I'm interested in, and if they don't have the kind of background that someone else may have and resources they've had access to, I'm willing to make sure a structure, the word you use the structure in place that allows for us to support that.

Chris Roberson: [00:10:46] Yes.

Susan Clark: [00:10:47] Perfect. So that's how you see this kind of equity and equitable component functioning, is that correct?

Chris Roberson: [00:10:55] That's correct. But you have to understand that it's not one size fits all and it never will work that way. And it never should be that way because one size will never fit all.

Jayla Huseyn: [00:11:10] And that's exactly what equity is about. You need to understand that there is no perfect solution that will work for everybody. You need to custom fit. You need to custom fit solutions for each and every group of people that you can potentially have. And that's where inclusivity is important because you need to listen to all of these different groups of people and listen to what they need. Because I am a middle Eastern woman. I don't know what a person who was born, grew up in America, in the suburbs might need. I know what I need as a middle Eastern immigrant, but I don't know what people born and raised here might need to use my platform to kind of go out there and ask people, Hey, what do you need? How can we provide that?

Chris Roberson: [00:11:58] And it's to identify that that is not a competition. We're not here to count numbers on each other. We are here to really see let's highlight the similarities, because there are a lot more of those than there are differences between all of us. And if we can find out where our similar struggles are, that can lead us back down another rabbit hole to the roots of those struggles. And then you can really look and say, where is all of this coming from? Not Why are we doing this to each other? Where is the root of all of this suffrage and all of this hatred and all of this bigotry? Like, is it even your fault?

Susan Clark: [00:12:41] Right.

Chris Roberson: [00:12:41] And then you will get so many more people that are like, Man, I have never even thought I could have this conversation with a person like you to understand that it's small minded and it's not doing anybody a disservice. But myself is not limiting and closing the doors on anyone but myself.

Susan Clark: [00:12:59] Right?

Chris Roberson: [00:12:59] Because the minute you see and look around and say, man, there are good people of every race, color and creed and there are bad people of every race, color and creed. And it's not the creed or the color that is determining the authenticity, good or bad, of these people. It's just the people.

Susan Clark: [00:13:21] Well, and I think because we're in this podcast called The Art of Dynamic Competence, my brother and I talk about and I think you guys have heard a little bit of it that we have kind of three perspectives that we can look from as we look at problems. One is instinctual. Which is very reactive, very close minded, very much knowing what is right and wrong. And then as you move out of instinctual, which is important, that we develop these elements when we're young, and then as we move into this more intentional space, which is, I think what you're describing, which is we begin to listen to each other. We began to learn from each other. We go into this space called and and both so that you are beginning to see how things fit together, not how they're pulled apart. Is that a little bit of the space that you're describing?

Chris Roberson: [00:14:10] I like how you said that it's the where it's the conscious and my unconscious mind. There are biases that I do not even know that I have. And if those biases are not are never identified to me, how am I going to be held accountable for those things? Right. And that's where like what you're explaining right now is to say it's one thing to say I have blinders, but it's another thing to say these are my blinders and I'm working. But it's like, what are you doing to change and to correct blind spots that you have?

Susan Clark: [00:14:45] Right. And I think what's interesting is that it's in this collective space that you're building by, including people who are different understanding they're coming with different skill sets, different knowledge, and that we have to look at building that we begin to start selecting for people who are interested in having this intentional conversation so that some of the criteria shifts so that you're looking for people who want to be inclusive, who want to talk about equity and think about equity.

Chris Roberson: [00:15:18] But it's such a sensitive, sensitive and unknown territory, especially in the workplace, that everybody loves to try to jump back to that. I'm not sure if we legally are going to be able to do this or I don't want to step into that realm or it's like, no, nothing that has ever happened in this country that needed to happen. Anything would change. And the lifting of a standard was easy.

Susan Clark: [00:15:44] That's true.

Chris Roberson: [00:15:45] Whether it is women's suffrage, whether if it's the civil rights movement, nobody willingly gave up power.

Susan Clark: [00:15:53] Well, and let's ask this question then about power, because one of the questions that comes up as you're moving from instinctual perspectives to intentional perspectives, you are giving up power. And that's a huge piece to it, because in instinctual, you know what is right and wrong and it's very hierarchical. So you know exactly where you are in that hierarchy. And if you have other people that come around, they're going to get in the middle of it. And that's really hard for a lot of people. So there has to be a benefit to going into this more intentional space. How is it that you guys are seeing benefit for folks to make this transition under DNI?

Chris Roberson: [00:16:35] The main benefit that I'm seeing right now with the current culture of architecture, the growth potential is very limited. If we do not diversify this culture that we have, if we do not advance. You see, it's either adapt or there's no survival.

Susan Clark: [00:16:54] Well, what's the limited potential you're talking about?

Chris Roberson: [00:16:57] If you are building for one type of society, there is only 10% of society that actually afford in architecture. So if we are only doing work for that 10% of society, how is an architect useful to society?

Susan Clark: [00:17:12] Great. So now the next question is through this D.I. Diversity, equity and inclusion. The hope is bringing in more people who are able to relate to a larger part of the population, correct?

Chris Roberson: [00:17:25] Yes. And represent and build for that population.

Susan Clark: [00:17:28] Right. Understand. And build for it by moving into this more intentional, inclusive sharing space is so that you can simply expand your market.

Jayla Huseyn: [00:17:40] Can I just say something really quickly? Yeah, I don't think it's necessarily giving up power. I think it requires giving up control rather than power.

Susan Clark: [00:17:50] So let's define the difference. That's a great distinction. What is that difference?

Jayla Huseyn: [00:17:54] I think when we say give up power, a lot of people assume, oh, if if I'm giving up power, that means I need to include more people in how I run things, which is not the case. Given up control means that you might need to allow more people to join the process, the, I guess, background processes that you're running. So instead of completely stepping back and stepping away and letting people of color or otherwise minorities run the field, what we're asking for is include people of color and minorities in these processes. And when I say giving up control, I mean there is a lot of stigma or taboo around having limitations in the works. There's a lot of, oh, we should make this political. You know, we should not talk about this in the workplace. And that, in my mind, is a matter of control, because once we start having these conversations, a lot of things are going to depend on the people. You know, you're going to have to change some of the things that you're doing in the field once we start having these conversations openly. And a lot of people are not ready for that because and I understand it can be a little scary and overwhelming to start that process, but that, in my mind, is a better description of. What's happening rather than saying it's a complete loss of power.

Susan Clark: [00:19:33] And I really like what you were talking about, Jayla, because I think control and power, it's a very interesting juxtaposition you set up because it feels as if to me as I listen to it, is that as you talk about control, it's a step forward that ultimately will probably lead to a change in a power structure, but it may be a little more palatable. Is that what you're thinking to really focus on this control piece first? Is that where you were going with that?

Jayla Huseyn: [00:20:01] Yes, in my mind, if we if we're talking about architecture and we say we need a complete change in power, that means that all the partners need to be switched around. Whereas in my mind, if we're talking about changing control, we're not switching people around, we're adding more people.

Chris Roberson: [00:20:23] Having a diverse group of individuals who have witnessed the change that has happened in architecture for themselves. Are the people you want there. Mm hmm. Who sing? You sincerely have a voice and have tried to stir it. But could you imagine bringing all of those collective resources of Anonymous over an air of a IDP, of NAACP, being BLM and being like, we aren't just fighting different battles. We're fighting the same thing on different fronts, right? So why don't we step back from the front line for a second, strategize as a whole, bring together our resources, and then we can as a whole be much more useful instead of piecemeal and fighting at the same thing from different directions and never making a real change.

Susan Clark: [00:21:16] So what you're saying there, Chris, is that collectively how do we make changes happen? And one of the ways is really to get into this intentional space, all of us. Yes. And begin to listen together about how to move this forward.

Chris Roberson: [00:21:32] All of us. But then it has to be collective, because one thing that if you know about the civil rights movement, when they marched on that bus system, it affected the financial market of that city. And that's where they got their change is because I'm controlling where my money goes. Now I'm making that decision because I as a citizen am now holding you to a standard. It's we as a society, we just will not shop there. Mm hmm. Oh, now, that is a big difference of power shift, because you have no you have no choice.

Jayla Huseyn [00:22:07] I don't think that's a power shift necessarily. I think it's just the acknowledgment of power, because if you think about it, people always have and will have the power. We just don't understand that we do being.

Chris Roberson: [00:22:22] So that's what we're doing now is we're not telling the people that they're doing anything wrong. We really are just saying, here is your power, here's how to use it and it's in your back pocket. Now we can go now and say, if you do not listen to us, us as a society have come together, us as a society, of educated members are coming together to say we don't stand for that.

Susan Clark: [00:22:49] So it's a really interesting thing you guys are bringing up because what starts to happen right as you go through this intentional work, you're making a change. To turn around and tell another group, we aren't taking it anymore. We're bigger than you. This is the way it has to be, is really going back into instinctual in some ways, which is not to say it's bad, but it's moving and instinctual. If you're still working within the same.

Chris Roberson: [00:23:17] System, charge you.

Susan Clark: [00:23:19] With. A really interesting question is can you take your work from this intentional conversation and begin to look at the problem integrally and you begin to ask the question the way that our financial structure is set up. Right. You said that when the people got on the busses, it was an economic impact to the cities and they suddenly had to change because of that. How is it that we can begin to redefine the economic status quo? How do we begin to redefine what is, as J.Lo was saying, this difference between power and control? How do we start to redefine it that isn't excluding people, but is beginning to set up a whole nother way of thinking about the problem so that you're not telling someone who's in an instinctual perspective, you're wrong. I'm right. You're able to move to a new place which begins to ask people to think differently about the problem together.

Chris Roberson: [00:24:19] I love that you brought that up because we have been going back and forth about this, whether it's architectural, getting somebody involved in architecture, understanding that architecture needs everybody from a plumber to a consultant to a construction worker. All of those people, architects do not survive on our own at all. And by no means so, unless we can create, amplify, diversify these other fields, engineering, GCS, contractors, all of these fields in a hope it will then in turn benefit us. And that's where everybody is having and enjoying that and understanding that.

Jayla Huseyn: [00:24:59] Another way it will affect firms economically and politically is if there is more inclusivity and diversity within firms, it's going to be much easier to openly discuss political and economic issues. Talking about your struggles or just the fact politics has on you personally was a taboo. We couldn't discuss it. We weren't supposed to talk about it. Know, keep the politics out of the workplace. So if you include more people that are being directly affected by policies and the economics, those conversations are we're going to have to have those conversations, because if your employees are affected by that, you have to address those.

Susan Clark: [00:25:42] And then, of course, what's critical is how you address them, right? Are you in this instinctual, reactive space where you're telling people the way they have to behave? Or are you in a more intentional space that allows people to have that conversation?

Chris Roberson: [00:25:56] And so when you say integral, is that a tool, a place of where we're trying to get to?

Susan Clark: [00:26:02] Integral is not a place that you go to. Yeah, every moment and every day. The way we structure our conversation and the teaching that we've been doing for years is that every moment you kind of have a choice. You can come at something from an instinctual perspective, you can come from an intentional perspective, and you can come from an integral perspective, and you're kind of making choices. Sometimes you're so unconscious and you're reacting to something ugly that you're totally in your instinctive space. It's that threat, right? It's that feeling really angry or feeling intensely in love. Know, it's that very deep, unconscious way when you choose to stop, take a breath, check your emotions and begin to have a conversation with people really listening to them. That's an intentional perspective. An integral perspective is when you begin to grow much more conscious of what's happening around you. I've been working in really understanding what it means to be integral in our culture. What happens is that we begin to see things more as a flow, that we're part of something much, much bigger, and we're feeling stability in that flow, even though it's really chaotic all the time. We see how something is flowing and when we talk to others, we invite them into this flow and begin to get them. And not everybody's ready to write. People who are highly instinctual are not going to get integral. They're just going to think you're fricking crazy. But if you can get people who've been working intentionally with you, as you said, bringing them together, having conversations, you can begin to make that jump into something that's really unknown to all of us.

Susan Clark: [00:27:46] We're really learning how to see the whole thing different. And that's why I brought up that economic piece, because we can just look at that. This thing is simply about making as much money as we can and that it's full of greed. That could be our perspective. And another perspective could be let's make enough money to survive and have enough that we can bring in more diversity, expand who we're talking to, expand who we're working with. All of those things are the next thing that you can do, but that's a hard jump. So part of wanting to talk to you guys is to really get a sense of where you are in the process and it sounds like you've gotten the space carved out that's not very instinctual anymore. You're starting to carve out a space and your organizations, your power structure are letting you carve out a space, encouraging you to carve out a space that's more intentional. And what I'm hoping is that as you're having these conversations now, you begin to look at the problem completely differently. And that's a little bit. Jayla What I was interested in your work where you are thinking about the people who didn't make it and for what reasons did they not make it? Because that becomes a whole new way of looking at the problem that maybe no one else has looked at before. Does that make sense to you? Jayla From what we were talking about.

Jayla Huseyn: [00:29:07] It definitely does. One thing that I do want to add, though, is that Chris is at his firm. He is the one who starting this process. At my firm, I was lucky enough to get there when that process, the structure has already been put into place. My boss was the one and I thank him for that, who created a very safe environment within within our studio where we can openly communicate to him if there's something that I think I need, if there are resources that I think I need, if there's something that I'm not happy with or not comfortable with, I can easily and openly communicate that to him. And I think our studio is a very good example of why, because we have that our. This encourages us to look into community engagement around Houston. He encouraged, encourages us to openly communicate to him he's very respectful and very understanding of our personal life situations, of something ever happens. And I think that's very critical to die. Whereas for Chris, he is the one who's kind of trying to build that up at his firm.

Susan Clark: [00:30:25] Right. And I think it's an interesting question, Chris, because now you get to begin to ask a question of the people around you. How much are they working from an instinctual, reactive perspective and how much are they open to more of an intentional conversation?

Chris Roberson: [00:30:43] And that is a question that I really should be asking. And somebody had to take the first shovel and start to kind of scratch that the surface to create a hole. And that's where really I was at is just I know the community is there because I see people like me at this firm, young black, coming from the HBCUs and hearing from them and talking to them is changing my perspective and I know I'm a little bit more receptive than most, but if I can adapt and grasp this more holistic understanding of not just my struggle, the more vague you are, the more questions people will have. And that does me more, because then they come and ask me and they're really receptive at that time. Like, I don't know what this is. And I'm like, Great, that's actually awesome. Because now I can ask you like, what do you want?

Susan Clark: [00:31:36] Well, and I think that's a really good approach because what that's allowing you to do by living in this kind of intentional and hopefully picking up more integral understandings, feeling that flow, understanding how things are moving and seeing the stability in that movement. As you model that you do, you're absolutely right. You don't have to say so much because people are very, very intrigued with who you are and what you're up to.

Chris Roberson: [00:32:03] Right. But to see that a lot of people are also intrigued that they haven't known that path of direction of how to get this out of me, of like, are we just in here and we feel like we're insulated from all that is going on where we're at work until we go home.

Jayla Huseyn: [00:32:20] But that's what I'm talking about. You can't separate politics from workplace because if you go home and you're affected by these decisions, you can't just come to work and leave it out the door or leave it at home and just go and work like nothing happened. You are going to be affected by it. So these conversations are very important to be implemented and had at work. Even if we don't feel comfortable having them.

Susan Clark: [00:32:48] Right. Angela, since I have you here, I'm really intrigued with the new research that you want to do, really to explore people who haven't made it in architecture. And tell me a little bit what intrigues you about that.

Jayla Huseyn: [00:33:02] So my thought process, I talked to a woman that studied architecture and then she worked in architecture and had kids. So she kind of left the field, stayed at home for ten years or something. And then when she tried to return, obviously things have changed. She didn't know the software that is being used now, so she was never able to kind of get back into the design and architecture field. So as I talked to her about it, I thought, we're focusing on so many success stories. That's what they taught us in school. We go to school, they show you all these architects, and that's great. That's very motivating. But what about the people that did not make it and why didn't they make it? So if we want to focus on inclusivity and equity and diversity and we really need to look at people who try to make it and we're not able to make it and look at why they weren't able what stop them, what obstacles were in their way.

Susan Clark: [00:34:07] So tell me why you think it's important that we look at these obstacles, these reasons that they did not make it and we're not successful. What's important to you about that?

Jayla Huseyn: [00:34:19] We want to understand these issues because that way we can fix them. That's kind of the short answer, because if we know that this woman was not able to succeed because she had to be a stay at home mom for 15 years, and the field is not built for women to be mothers and then return back. Then we need to address that and we need to fix that.

Susan Clark: [00:34:43] Right. And what I'm getting at and this is a question I really am framing to you, because we talked a little bit about being integral. You're not going to be able to get into an integral space until you understand the situation that you're coming or that's surrounding you. And in this case, by knowing obstacles, by knowing what are some of the barriers that show up now, you're beginning to consciously think and explore with others what could be done differently. So you've built this skill set while everybody is working together in this intentional space, right? There's trust, there's ways of communicating. We've got a good sense of who likes to do what and what their skills are. And now in this architectural world, when you're thinking about what is integral, you're able to grab on to and completely rethink what's there. So how is it that we support and make sure that the finances of the organization are solid and we have enough learning opportunities and we have enough diversity and equity in here? How do those come together? That's an integral that's a conscious, integral conversation. And getting to that place, you have to know where you are. And that's why I love Jayla bringing up these questions.

Jayla Huseyn: [00:36:01] Yes.

Susan Clark: [00:36:02] So it's almost like you're looking at diversity, equity and inclusion and also looking what both works and doesn't work.

Chris Roberson: [00:36:09] Yes, absolutely. And using what did work and taking the things that were successful in the things that didn't work. And not just discarding them. I hear that our differences, but what are our similarities? Let's look at the surrounding. Let's look at the context. Let's look at our where we are. So that's really what we're trying to do is to say, how can we help but then not just to leave it there.

Jayla Huseyn: [00:36:39] Yeah. Also, just just to add to that, there's more people that did not make it than people that did make it. So for us to highlight the people that did versus talking about why the people that did not make it did not make it is a little makes me feel a little iffy because you're selling me something that I potentially cannot ever achieve, you know?

Susan Clark: [00:37:02] Mm hmm. And I think, again, at the root of change is understanding that component to kind of wrap this up. Talk to me a little bit about where in your lifetime you want to see the field of architecture changing?

Chris Roberson: [00:37:17] Because we are building the society that we live in. We should not reflect it. We should meet it. Our society should be where you can go and say you have orange, green, yellow and everything else creating the world that we live in because they need to be creating it and not because it's a financial gain, but because it benefits us in having all of these different experiences from the painter's daughter to the principal's son. Let's see now, how can we both come together and see? Like, Man, my dad had the same worth work ethic as yours and it was just a different set of decisions, or where he was born or who he was born to that dictated so much of this. But the character of the person that I was around was just as great as the person that you were around. And they were completely different. That is really where art I see architecture is going. We're not reflective of society. We really are setting that standard of. If we can write our ship and correct our wrongs. If architecture, one of the oldest professions that you can look at, can come and revamp and pull the veil back that it itself has created. Then you can't tell me society and politics and law and law enforcement can't do the same thing.

Susan Clark: [00:38:46] Good. Jayla, what do you think?

Jayla Huseyn: [00:38:48] I agree with everything that Chris said. And just one more thing to add, just to kind of summarize where I want to see architecture and just our world in general to be I want to see the system working for people, not the other way around. I want to see the system being built for the people, not people trying to adjust to fit into the system, if that makes sense.

Susan Clark: [00:39:15] Oh, totally does. Because if you're looking at reconstructing our culture, that's part of why we created this podcast, is to kind of talk about it in this realm of instinctual, intentional and integral that by looking at these different ways of viewing the world, what you're really talking is we have to create a new, integral understanding that is inclusive of a great deal of diversity with a lot of equity and ethical components to it. And I think those are really important elements to moving forward. And I'm so hopeful and I'm looking forward in the future to talking with you guys on how it's going, what have you learned, what is starting to happen and how much have you been able to grab on to this integral space as you're beginning to become more conscious and see how really how our best stability comes from the greatest amount of flow.

Chris Roberson: [00:40:08] And I like that you included chaos in that flow because that flow underneath the surface, it may look smooth as glass and it may not seem like it has a current or a bit of life in there. But you put your foot in and you're swept away because it's so chaotic underneath there, but it seems like it's just so organized. But that's to the naked eye. Right? And I love that you're really going in and saying, let's not fall in love what you see on the surface and let's put our foot into this water and not just sample it, put it like get comfortable in that environment to understand that it's.

Susan Clark: [00:40:47] Layered, right? And I and I love that, Chris, because putting your foot in is where you're you're really kind of getting into that intentional space, trying something new and at the same time understanding you're going to be okay because that river, that whatever flow that you're you're in front of has a continuity, has a stability, and that you're just tapping into it and feeling all that chaos. But you can always pull yourself out and see the larger flow, feeling a little bit of stability as you're doing this very difficult work of beginning to wake up to what is instinctual, what you aren't hearing, what are your deep, deep, deep, dark assumptions where all this racism and classism and all of that bubbles up from? Yes, we have to have that ability.

Chris Roberson: [00:41:35] Do better than set a new standard, because that's that means that we're we among ourselves are now saying you can do better and not because I'm telling you so. Because I did so. So let's here's my path. You can follow it, you can deviate, but it's here and you can progress. And so let's do that for all of us. And it makes you want to pay it back forward even more because you're like, if that little help helped me imagine what a little help to a lot of people will do.

Susan Clark: [00:42:09] Sure.

Chris Roberson: [00:42:10] I think like what you're doing here, how you're creating a conversation is the oral history we need.

Susan Clark: [00:42:17] Well, I want to thank both of you as well as Issa for joining us on the podcast. It's been great talking to you and really exploring this with you.

Jayla Huseyn: [00:42:27] Thank you so much for creating this platform and listening and to find the solutions to these very important issues.

Susan Clark: [00:42:37] Thanks so much. And we'll talk soon.

Chris Roberson: [00:42:39] Thank you.

Jayla Huseyn: [00:42:40] Thank you.

Susan Clark: [00:42:42] Well, Tom, thanks for joining us again.

Thomas May: [00:42:44] Thanks for having me back, Susan.

Susan Clark: [00:42:47] Well, this is a little different conversation. And as I mentioned in the introduction, one reason I chose both Gayla and Chris is to talk to young people, young professionals who are working on this very difficult concept of diversity, equity and inclusion. What did you hear in the podcast that stood out for you?

Thomas May: [00:43:09] This is if you listen to what Chris and Jayla are saying, they have an issue at work and they're trying to implement a program that's going to make the company better. And Chris was in one spot where he's the one trying to implement it. And then Jayla is in another spot where it has already started to be implemented and she feels like her boss. The leadership is getting it and is at least trying. They're trying to make it happen. So if you really kind of go back to what Chris's scenario is, is that he's trying to push something in an environment that's just not ready for it, and it just falls right into this whole concept of Dynamic Competence is what are those things that Chris needs to be doing to take people from that very reactive view of things and moving them into that intentional where we can have a conversation and then ultimately helping those get to the integral spot in which we can actually get to coming up with solutions and pulling folks together and really leveraging that diversity that he's trying to build.

Susan Clark: [00:44:15] And Tom, I was quite intrigued with the way Chris brought up this concept of being vague as a means to try to entice people into a new kind of way of thinking.

Thomas May: [00:44:26] I was kind of intrigued by that, too, Susan, because I didn't I didn't pick up on it till I listened to the podcast the second time. It was just very slight and he said, I am vague, which then makes people then ask more questions. And I thought that was brilliant, because if you think about it, if you have such a charge subject like DEI and there's a lot of emotion in reaction to it, and if you come in highly overt, you're like, We've got to do this. It's the only way to save the company. We got to get better, blah, blah, blah. I think that's overwhelming to a reactive person. So his concept of coming in vague and just, I think he's what he's saying is he comes in a very tone down. He goes, matter of fact, this is what it's about. This is what's happening. We should think about this. We should do this. But he doesn't give all the information, which then allows others to a little bit of openness, a little bit of safety, to then ask the question, what do you mean? And just like he said, bingo, now we're talking. I just thought that was brilliant.

Susan Clark: [00:45:25] And both Shayla and Chris have this ability, I think, which is what intrigued me in the beginning of really looking at how to draw folks in, how it is that we begin to in some ways even charm them into this space where they're able to see things differently than they saw before, especially since they both are people of color. She, of course, is from the Middle East and he's African American. Both of them have this charm and charisma that I think helps draw people into this conversation on what it should look like, especially when they're in that, as you said, much quieter mode, a little more vague, a little less forceful.

Thomas May: [00:46:03] I would agree with you, Susan. And again, it is we keep talking about this. We have to learn to bring the temperature down, to draw others in. If you try to do like you specifically spoke, if you said, well, this is what it is and this is the way we got to do it. Now we have the power and I'm going to drive that that issue with you. Right. Once that happens, the walls go up. There is no more communication. And our whole goal is to get to the communication.

Susan Clark: [00:46:31] Tom, I'm glad you brought up power, because that's a part of what also I heard in both Jalen and Chris's interview, they talked about civil rights and the civil rights movement had power because it began to have an economic impact. They began to look at collectively how to make change by forcing the system to change. What do you think about that and how do you reconcile that with this, speaking quietly and being a little more vague and less overt to draw people in?

Thomas May: [00:47:04] Well, again, Chris, Angela had some very good points. And I think Jayla did very well at describing the difference between power and control, and everybody has their version of that one. But my take on it is that the term power is a very instinctual type of mindset. Those with power, those without those in control, those without those are words that you use. It's very.

Susan Clark: [00:47:29] Tight. It's the essence of hierarchy, which is the organizational structure, very reactive, instinctual.

Thomas May: [00:47:36] And I was in the military and that's exactly what it is, but it's a structure to get things done. So is there power? Yes. Is there control? Yes. But then when you get into the intentional what you start to learn and realize it's about what Jayla said. It's about sharing of that control. You kind of want to drop the power language. Just my own preference I get into now just use the word control and you say, Can we share control? Can we work together? I have. I'm in a position of authority over you, but I need you to collaborate with me. Can I share some of my control? Right. And then those who work together on a team, they should be sharing insights and stuff and they should try to work as peers and being able to have that communication component to it. And then the funny part is that when you get to the individual world, what you then realize is it really is no power, there is no control, it's all contrived in our own minds and we actually put ourselves there all the time. So I just think that that conversation was really important because it does talk to how do you get to the quietness it's sharing. And if you allow people to feel like you're sharing part of what you do, it can be your power. It can just be your vision. It can be your how you feel. The more you start to share, the more it opens trust with others.

Susan Clark: [00:48:57] I think that's terrific, Tom, because what I see is diversity. Equity and inclusion is not about people of color. It's about realizing that diversity of thought and experiences amongst your staff at work, that when we began to see that diversity and we begin to think, how is it going to be equitable for everyone? How is it that we create opportunities for those who may not have as much experience in a particular kind of design or whatever that issue is, that there's some deficiency. How do we make sure that everyone has access to those resources to succeed, and how are we consciously including everybody in that conversation that changes everything at an employment when it's not coming from power and control, but it really is looking at sharing of some of that control. I agree with.

Thomas May: [00:49:49] You. Don't make a d-ii effort, just a d-ii effort. Right? If you come at that with it's just a single process. I do steps one through seven, we get it implemented and we do it. If you take that approach, it's too broad of a subject, it has too many facets to it. And if we take this very instinctual, process driven way of doing things, we end up hampering what the full intent was, which is to recognize everybody brings something to the table. And if you're smart in a business, you're smart and how you manage your own life and how you lead people. You recognize that there is value and you must draw that out. But that means you have to also question your own constraints, your own things that say, Oh, well, they can't do this because of this, right? You have to question that and say, well, is that really true? And so it's it's the given the take in there, it's like understanding yourself very well and then also understanding the people and the environment you're in. Remember the two basic fundamentals you say you have to start with?

Susan Clark: [00:50:53] And I think, Tom, it's really interesting because it is on both sides. So if you look at the managers, the quote unquote bosses, they have to be aware of this in themselves and they have to be open to what is possible. They can't know all the answers. And the more that they share some of that control by asking questions of the staff and then on the other side, those that are on the staff being managed, as they begin to feel more comfortable and understand that they should be taking some of these questions and beginning to have an answer to them. Now we start having a very interesting dialog that really gets at the core of what DEI is trying to accomplish.

Thomas May: [00:51:32] Exactly right. And when you act that way, it becomes authentic. And you remember back when of our podcast we had, it was about authentic leadership. And when you say authentic leadership, what you're saying is not I'm doing authentic leadership. What you're doing is you're being real, you're being authentic. And when you are truly authentic, when you have pushed ego out, when you have concentration on how do I get better and how do I help my team? And you look at it that way, people pick up on that. They pick up on the authenticity. And if you don't have that, you can't even start the conversation.

Susan Clark: [00:52:10] Oh, that's fabulous. Tom, I'm so glad we had you back on to talk about this at the end of their lovely adventure that they are currently on. So we'll have them back in the future and see what they've been able to implement over time. But I think this was a good summary that we just went through. Thank you so much.

Thomas May: [00:52:28] Yeah, I agree. I look I look forward to seeing their progress and and how it goes.

Susan Clark: [00:52:33] Well, thanks so much. We want to share a heartfelt thanks for all who have joined us for this episode of The Art of Dynamic Competence. We're incredibly grateful that you shared some of your day with us. We know your time is precious, and we hope that we've been able to share some interesting perspectives and helped you gain some insight in how you've used Dynamic Competence before in your own life and how to find it in new things you're taking on. We've now launched our social media at The Art of Dynamic Competence, so please follow us on your favorite platform in the meantime, and if you're intrigued with what you've heard, please subscribe to this podcast. And please tell colleagues, friends and family about us. This is Susan Clark for The Art of Dynamic Competence. Thank you so much for listening.